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D11 Orbiting theory (continued)

So after my post the other day I got a couple great questions from Shwayone that I’d like to address, as well as i’d like to go a bit further with this topic.  If you haven’t yet read my last post on orbiting “I didn’t close my D11…”, please do so before continuing so you’re not confused as to what the fuck i’m talking about.  If you have already, read on…

Shwayone writes:

Thank you for the very insightful and honest post. I really appreciate this one because I feel like this is currently “taboo” in the “get laid fast” paradigm of PU ..

I do have a few questions!

How do you decide which girls you are willing to “wait for”/go to D10+ etc …vs which girls you just next and move on?

How can a guy discern when a girl genuinely is trying to deepen the connection vs just using him as a source of validation/orbiting/cheap friendship etc?..

I know I’ve definitely fired good girls prematurely when they wouldn’t sleep with me asap, so I feel being a bit more flexible-sometimes!-may bring its own rewards.

I would definitely like to read more posts that are in this vein of thinking as it is a rare discussion in the community.



Thanks for your questions Shwayone, you’re absolutely right.  It’s a taboo thing to say in the pickup community that you don’t have to get laid in the first 5 seconds of meeting a girl.  I believe that in order to grow as a community in our collective knowledge, we should consistently challenge our own viewpoints in order to find out what reality is, not just what we think it might be.  Seeking knowledge of how every aspect of dating actually works is why I keep teaching students, writing my blog, and sarging after all of these years.  I’m intensely and unquenchably interested in it.

Onto your questions.

1.  How do you decide which girls you are willing to “wait for”/ go to D10+ etc… vs which girls you just next and move on?

Before answering this, I have to explain where i’m coming from with this technique.  First and foremost, i’m a totally abundant guy.  I’m sexually experienced and totally satisfied.  This makes me not care as much about immediate sex because I know i’m getting it anyway.

When I take sex out of the equation (or at least devalue it), i’m really able to see a woman, and see her right now, for what she will be to me later on in a relationship when the sex isn’t as intense and interesting to me as it was in the beginning, a companion.

Have you ever met a girl and liked her intensely, only to realize after spending enough time with her or sleeping with her that you don’t actually like her?  Why did that happen?

Really what i’m trying to learn and master right now with this Israeli girl (and the girls to come) is how to consistently have the resolve to push myself through that weird phase where my brain says “FUCK HER NOW!” in order to have a more solid screening process for women.  I want to be able to go into an interaction with a girl knowing that I won’t fuck her until our relationship is developed enough that when we do have sex it’s amazing on many levels, not just the physical one.  I believe this type of sex gets a woman off more than any type of sex.

Backing up a bit, does this mean I still might have random sex from time to time and pickup chicks, blah blah blah?  Yeah.  For now keep in mind that i’m just talking about the ideal theory i’ll use to guide myself into a long-term relationship.  And on that note, I should mention something weird that I learned from the time i’ve spent with the Isreali girl, and it’s that I think we as humans are able to develop connections and bonds with people almost no matter who they are!  In other words, I have a connection with this girl that has some solid strength and staying power.  It’s not the strongest i’ve had by any means, but I think if you magically were to form this “strength of connection” up into an arrow, take me and this girl out of it, and have cupid shoot that arrow at another random couple, the result could very well be a connection strong enough to perpetuate that couple into a marriage or other very strong relationship.  Is this level of strength enough for me to be super into this Isreali girl above all others, no.  I’m just trying to propose that using this theory effectively might give me the power to literally have as shallow of a relationship or as deep of a relationship as I might choose, anytime I choose.


So!  How do I recommend you choose which girls to go to day 10 with and which girls to next?

If you’re a beginner guy I think you should date them all and basically do as good as you can with every girl you meet until you know you can fuck girls with consistency if you so choose to.

For an intermediate guy who maybe has a rotation already, start waiting for the “lustre” to wear off of a few girls and see what happens.  Start learning about yourself and how your own mind works.  Power and control over your impulses is what we seek, so start practicing resolve.

For an advanced guy in pickup, the world is your oyster.  When you meet a girl, choose your own adventure based on how you size her up.  For instance, if I meet a girl and she doesn’t look like relationship potential, maybe we have a fling for a month or two if we’re both up for it.  If I meet a girl who’s in town for the weekend and is partying, maybe we have sex that night.  And when I meet a girl who looks like serious relationship potential, my plan will be to wait for sex until I feel the timing is right and the balance between sexual attraction and companionship-type attraction is good.  I want to make an educated, informed, precise decision about whether or not I want a long term relationship right now, and right now with this girl.

In other words, when I size-up a girl as having some potential for a long term relationship, I don’t want to make the decision to have sex with her simply because my body wants to or my mind is blindly directing me to fuck.  Instead I want to gain a level headed non sexually needy state, spend time with her, and then make my decision.  This process saves me from a ton of “bullshit” problems and grief with women!  First of all, it would be a total disaster to waste my life stuck in the consequences of decisions my dick made instead of my brain, like unwanted babies, divorce, etc.  More simply, if I meet a girl I like, date her, then realize she’s not for me, it’s FAR easier to break that off than it is to fuck her 20 times then decide to break it off after emotions and drama are involved.  And trust me, the world is a better place as a result!

I’m not sure what you’ve done, but i’ve fucked over some women in bad ways throughout this process of learning pickup.  I’ve dumped a ton, i’ve broken hearts, i’ve been caught in bed balls deep in another chick, etc.  It’s not fun for her, and truthfully not for me either.  I believe that experiences like these can wear away at a man’s soul.  Feeling like you’re a bad person can ruin self-worth and self-esteem.  I’ve seen the results of a lifetime of this first hand in the lives of some of my mentors.  Luckily for me, Brad made me fully aware that these types of things would happen throughout my learning process.  They were “par for the course” and “the price you have to pay” to get good.  No doubt, if you become as seasoned as I am you’ll have many of the same types of experiences.  My goal through this post is to try and open your eyes before your make these mistakes so that you can possibly minimize the negative impact that they might have on you.  I’m a super mentally strong guy and not everyone is as tough.  Be honest with the expectations you have of yourself.

When do I just move on?

When I size up a girl as having long term potential, I get to know her, and my gut says “No” for whatever reason, then I move on.  And let me clarify!  By “move on” I mean I have the strength and wherewithal to know this isn’t right, so once I’ve decided it’s not right, I make an active decision NOW to end it, break up, etc.  I know that this is the easiest time to breakup, and that if I don’t do it now before sex, it’ll be much tougher later on.

Next question.

2.  How can a guy discern when a girl is genuinely trying to deepen the connection vs. just using him as a source of validation/orbiting/cheap friendship, etc?
A quick side-note.  A girl won’t try to “deepen the connection” until you’re in a relationship.  Until then it’s just her sizing you up.  Deepening a connection is something that happens after a good amount of mutual investment in one another.  That said…
This is a GREAT question on many levels!!! and believe it or not women have almost the same question about men!  They wonder if men are using them for validation and sex and friendship as well!  A little known secret about me is that I council some of the women I know about men, and I do so quite regularly.  In fact I don’t think i’ve ever told anyone I do that ever, but I do it both because i’m supremely interested in it, and because I care deeply about the women who I help out.  And if you’re wondering, no these aren’t women i’ve fucked or had relationships with.  They’re long term friendships.

I’ll tell you the same thing I told a 50ish year old woman last week.  Though it’s very tough to know right now whether or not someone is using you, it’s very easy to take steps to find out.  The key is investment. Quite simply, a person who is using another person will only invest enough to get what they want, beyond that it becomes not worth it to them.

In other words, if you want to know if a girl is using your for whatever, “ask” for her to invest and see what she does;  INVEST and OBSERVE is how I like to say it.  Ask her to dinner.  Ask her to go for a drive in your car for fun.  Ask her for some form of compliance that would signify further investment from her towards a relationship.  If she’s willing to invest in you, then she’s less likely to be using you.

I want to be clear about this because it’s an important concept, so let me give you an example.  You’re hanging out with a girl on a regular basis and you don’t know where you stand.  Does she like you or is she interested in you?  Well the first step is to try some shit, right?  Try and hold her hand maybe or try and escalate kino, kiss her maybe.  Does she do it, does she comply?  Make the effort to invest and if a woman complies then you’re on the right track, but for god sakes TAKE THE LEAD and try!!!

Another example, tougher this time.  You’ve gone out with a girl 5 times and touched her boob, but she won’t go any further with you no matter what kino escalation you try.  What do you do?

Again, you INVEST in her and OBSERVE what she does.  Here, investment might take on another form.  This girl might have some sexual hangup (somewhat unlikely i’d say), or she might just be wondering (just like you are) if she’s being used.  Think about how to invest in her.  Get creative about the way you invest in her if you need to.  And I don’t mean buying her sushi and saki next time instead of steak and martinis this time.  Remember, if you’ve been on 5 fucking dates with her she’s not interested in a quick fuck, she’s likely interested in LOVE and a long term relationship with you, and she’s sizing up whether or not you’re that guy.  For these reasons I would recommend a guy in this situation invest emotionally in the girl.  It takes some courage to be vulnerable about your feelings, and yes there’s a time and a place to be vulnerable, so start with something small.  DON’T tell her how hot you think she is, that’s not a feeling.  Maybe start with the way the waitress made you feel, make it a joke.  “Wow, can you feel how fake she is???  makes me feel like i’m at a bar with a girl hitting on me who thinks i’m rich or something.”  Or if you wanted something a bit deeper you could say something like “I like how you dressed up tonight for me, it makes me feel good that you wanted to look nice for tonight.”  Can you see how a comment like this is vulnerable, invests, and isn’t try-hard or needy?  In fact, it’s got a “you want me” frame built right into it, yet you’re still letting a girl in on your feelings.  This is CHICK CRACK!!!  The stuff that gets into her head, makes her feel special, and makes her cum hard when she’s fucking you.

Invest and observe.

So that’s about it for today, but I wanna give anyone who’s interested a homework assignment.  This is for intermediate to advanced guys only, so if you’re not getting laid consistently or struggling to get some lays under your belt, fuck off!  This will hurt you, not help you.

However, if you’re ready for it AND if you’re a guy who is open to having a long-term relationship, try practicing hanging out with a girl you meet as many times as necessary until the feeling of really physically wanting to fuck her subsides somewhat and is replaced by liking her company and the camaraderie that you two have developed.  Yes, you’ll still want to fuck her, the feeling will just subside somewhat and you’ll be comfortable not fucking her.  You’re allowed during this time to kiss/makeout, just not get to the point of taking clothes off or oral/fingering/tuggy’s, etc.

Note and gain awareness of how your brain and your body want to override your thought and just make you want to blindly fuck.  When you’ve gotten to this place, then start deciding if the girl is a long term option for you.  Try and be wise.  Think about how she’ll fit into your lifestyle.  Think about what social value and lifestyle value she has to offer you.  If your gut tells you she’s a “no,” dump her without fucking her.  If you truly are intermediate or advanced and you get to this point, you already know you could fuck her, but if she’s wrong for you dump her without fucking her and observe how good this action makes you feel.  It should grow and support your self-esteem and self-worth, and you should feel some sense of power and control over your future.

And remember, this is just an exercise.

As for me, next time I try this I think i’ll do the same thing as I did with this Isreali chick, but next time make the girl wait for a bit after she tries for sex the first time with me until I actually fuck her, just to see what happens.  Ideally i’ll be the one in full control of how far we go.  It’ll be like i’m the woman.  HA!  Gotcha bitch!

I suppose ideally the result from all this theory and practice will be that I’ll have full control (or at least my say in) the pace and flow of the relationship, such that if she tries too early to fuck me (and I see LTR possibility) i’ll keep sex from happening, and if she’s waiting too long for whatever reason (if we’re that far then my guess is it would have to be a sexual hangup) then i’ll accelerate things (aka escalate agressively, the traditional blow me or blow me out style).

Another side note, I see this conundrum of sex vs. companionship played out in a variety of ways in those around me.  Many times people get married and one cheats.  Some men will stay with a woman because of fear of loss or a belief that they “can’t do better” than the woman they have, but what if i’m different?  What if I, and what if you for that matter, truly have the ability to fuck whomever whenever, and then we decide to stay with a woman knowing that we’re in a place of power and that we could leave if we so chose?  Could this make a marriage have a different dynamic?   Would it have more staying power?  And would that staying power instead of coming from a place of fear of loss or feeling like I can’t do any better instead come from the solid rock of experience and wisdom?  Seems to me like a woman would be very lucky to have a man like that, but what do I fucking know?

I think the goal is to find a balance between companionship and great sex.  The great sex keeps you physically satisfied, and the companionship is good for your soul.  They make each other stronger, better.  Maybe if you get to a place where you’ve got that balance, and you do it with a seasoned eye, you can be happy with all of the good and all of the imperfection that will inevitably exist together.  There’s a beauty in that.

Remember also that all this post is technically theory.  Since I haven’t gone out and tested all of this stuff a ton yet, much of it is educated guessing.  I have already had some long term relationships (2+ years) that started off with a single night lay.  This theory and practice I discuss is simply my personal current work in challenging my beliefs and expanding my knowledge to gain a more accurate and holistic knowledge of dating and where its boundaries lie.

Thanks for reading.

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